55 Responses to:
OF DNA, PROTESTS AND RELIGIOUS FAITH

# 1. 12/10/02 1:13 AM by Nancy - UT
I really appreciate this article, especially the end. It is so fun to read of all the latest discoveries, in science or archaeology and such, but from a religious viewpoint, it does not make a hill of beans worth of difference, if the spirit does not tell you it is true.

# 2. 12/10/02 1:52 AM
Thank you for your usual insightful commentary. Seems to me that some folks are so busy tearing someone else or something else apart that they waste time, energy, and brain power which could be put to much better use . . . .

# 3. 12/10/02 2:45 AM
First off, I can't understand why people choose to protest against a church, if they don't believe, fine. but leave the rest of us alone! Second, they are probaly the same ones who claim we are all descendents of "Lucy" and we all came out of Africa, but yet now the Jews and the Native Americans are in no way related? Are they saying that scientificaly two(or more) unrelated human species developed simultaneously? Thirdly, we all are decendants of Adam and Eve, then after the flood we are all from Noah. We are all distant cousins whether you go by the biblical or the scientfic version.

Just how many religions have people protesting with signs and bullhorns,as I have seen at the Hill Cumoah pageant? Why do they spend so much time and energy in something they don't believe?

# 4. 12/10/02 4:30 AM by Jason - Silver Spring, Maryland
Despite the fact that I do not believe in the verisimilitude of the Book of Mormon, I must agree with your well-constructed argument. Critical thinkers like you are the ones we need behind microphones and in front of keyboards.

Considering also that popular scientific opinion is shifting toward attitudes that DNA has very little to do with race, and that frequently people of different races commonly have more in common genetically than people of the same race, I don't see how this researcher came to his conclusion.

# 5. 12/10/02 6:33 AM by Jean - Canadice, NY
This Phd. sounds like a crock to me. I just did a paper on geneotype and there is a theory that DNA has changed over time. There is also no proof that genes cause ADHD or intelligence. They only know how genes affect hair color, height, some physical diseases.

# 6. 12/10/02 6:45 AM by Alan - Canadice, NY
Professing themselves to be wise they became fools and changed the glory of the incorruptable God into the image of corruptable man and birds and fourfooted beasts and creeping things.

# 7. 12/10/02 6:51 AM by Tom Dey - Springwater, NY
Bob, PhDs aren't worth much - I can tell you that from personal experience. Very interesting column. Why a wanna-be scientist picks this as a worthy topic evades me. I'll bet he has some personal ax to grind. That would explain the "research" leading to a protest outside the Mormon temple. He started with his desired conclusion and worked it to come out as the answer. And that, in itself, violates a fundamental tenet of science. Biased research is worthless - true scientists do everything in their power to avoid it. P.s. - I'm Roman Catholic, but sure wouldn't expect to have a statistically significant genetic relationship to Mother Theresa.

# 8. 12/10/02 7:04 AM by Rick - Kearns, Ut
If I understand what this guy is saying, then if I took a DNA sample of say a jew in NYC and then a sample froma jew in LA, because they are both jewish then there must be a DNA link? Sounds like bull pucky to me. You are so right, Bob. The only way to find out if things regarding religion are true is thru knee power.

# 9. 12/10/02 7:15 AM by Corey Sapp - Webster, NY
Bob:

Thanks for putting words like

'Mormon temple' and 'Salt Lake City'

in the beginning of your article.

I know right away that I don't want to read it.

Most of us Rochester folk only like to read about local issues, or national issues. We never want to read about Utah issues.

But you are trying to build up your readership so I guess I understand.

Editor's Note: ... and the horse you rode in on.

# 10. 12/10/02 7:45 AM by Dave - Webster, NY
So, the book of Morman says that "a small group of Israelites came to the Americas from Palestine more than 2,500 years ago" .... hmmm well anyone can believe what they want, but the PhD person's DNA stuff aside, I find that pretty tough to believe. (Like, how did they get here for one?) But go ahead and believe what you want ...

Editor's Note: Uh, the same way a small group of Vikings and a small group of Italians and Spaniards got here?

# 11. 12/10/02 8:01 AM by AMS - Riverton, Utah
Corey, why do you not want to read about Utah issues? I'm from Utah, and I don't mind hearing about NY issues.

# 12. 12/10/02 8:13 AM
All I know is whoever is responsible for your DNA needs a good smack in the head.

# 13. 12/10/02 8:22 AM by Brian - Irondequoit
My jaw hit the desk when I read that a Ph.D. candidate is seeking his Doctoral degree by trying disprove the teachings of a religion. That alone should be a disqualifier for his receiving the degree! And shame on those picketing on behalf of the student! I wonder if these same people would try to denounce a non-Christian religion as casually. It's wrong to be intolerant of religions, unless it's Christianity, and it's wrong to denounce other "cultures" in countries ruled by a ruthless murdering dictators, but it's okay to rag incessantly on Western culture. NOT! There are a lot of people with some pretty whacked-out wiring in their heads! We need to win back the hearts and minds of the brainwashed so-called "intellectuals".

# 14. 12/10/02 8:36 AM by Khrystja - Rochester
#10 should read the story about Kon-Tiki and Ra.

http://www.museumsnett.no/kon-tiki/

This gives a lot of credit to the theory of ancient travel. Before one eats boot leather they should get all the facts on their plate.

# 15. 12/10/02 9:04 AM by Ms. Sequin
This dudes' "research" and grasping for the all-hallowed PhD. are symptoms of the depressing, accelerating decline of humanity. This is what comes of moving away from belief in "something greater than ourselves" and gravitating toward belief in ourselves as deity. Bleah....I hate it.

# 16. 12/10/02 9:08 AM by Jeff Black - West Jordan, UT
Great column Bob, and, if I may, I'd like to write a few words to respondent #9, Corey Sapp.

Golly, Mr. Sapp, I didn't know there were any grumpy people in Webster, New York.

Perhaps you are not interested in Utah because you just don't know us. Come on out and stay in our guest room, and we will feed you ample bowls of sumptuous stew, with all the hot, home-made bread you'd care to eat, and any one of a number of famous Utah Jell-O salads.

We can take you to see Temple Square and all the sights in southern Utah, which hundreds of thousands of people from all over the world come to see every year.

In this winter season we could also take you to one of many resorts where you could ski on "The Greatest Snow On Earth".

We could send you home with a smile and your very own copy of the Book of Mormon with your name embossed on the front cover in gold letters.

Shucks, we may also find that you and my family share some of the same DNA--- you know, two eyes, two ears, one nose---stuff like that.

Oh my heck, wouldn't that be great?

However, if you and the horse you rode in on would rather be grumpy, go right ahead and be as grumpy and miserable as you wish.

# 17. 12/10/02 9:17 AM by james - walworth, ny
Bob,

sounds to me like the protesting was done at the wrong place.

Should have been in front of this intolerant university where this guy practices bad science, not out in front of a temple.

# 18. 12/10/02 9:20 AM by Roger Baker - Canandaigua, NY
Bob: you are getting all wound up. One of the many reasons I loathe organized religion is that "the true believers" of each faith get so invested in THEIR version of a particular mystery of life, that anyone who questions it is an infidel to be ridiculed, ostracized, and maybe killed (depending on what part of the globe you inhabit). The fact is this: the Bible is a man-made story, as is the Book of Mormon, the Koran, and every other version of The Big Answer Book. They each represent an attempt by man that fall short of the mark, since the ultimate answer is not knowable.

But it sure makes for a lively argument. Yes sir, a great reason to hate. You bet it is worth killing for. After all, this is the story my great grandfather died defending.

Blah, blah, blah. You are all wrong. But you are world champion haters.

Editor's Note: Great. See you in hell.

# 19. 12/10/02 9:20 AM by Paul - Hilton, NY
I am not familiar with the DNA work your column disagrees with, and you make some good points against it. I do want to challenge one point that you make, though. You say that matters of faith are purely matters of faith, and that there is no place for science in these matters. Well, not completely, to my thinking.

Matters of religion are matters of faith between us and God, and if there is no mystery, where we leap beyond what is totally proveable, then it is not much of a religion; granted. But, I assert that while there will be no PROOF, there is often testable EVIDENCE which can provide some basis for the reasonableness of our faith and the credibility of documents and characters.

For example, while we cannot prove that Jesus will come back again, as the Bible asserts, we CAN test whether he fulfilled certain prophecies given about his first coming, we can look at historical evidence that he did in fact live, did in fact do incredible things which the Bible claims, did in fact die as written (there are Roman records of these events in the Vatican library), and most important, that he was in fact seen very much alive by many people after he was very much dead, as seen by many people. So, this proveable evidence of his resurrection provides a basis of credibility, upon which that which cannot be proven is accepted by faith, which God provides us.

So, I support and look with some interest upon the study of evidence, in fields like historic documents, archeology, etc., as I have no fear of the truth. We will never have total proof. If we did, the spiritual value of accepting by faith, like a child, would be lost. And, we need that. But, the Bible is full of accounts which left a very public record, and of which we can find evidenced in the world today.

Editor's Note: There are virtually no independent historic confirmations of anything biblical. Period. They simply don't exist. And, as the Apostle Peter said in the "Patrologia Greca," "Those who undertake to understand the things of God must do so by the Spirit of God." I think he was right.

# 20. 12/10/02 9:51 AM by Joyce S - Nephi, Utah
Someone once said that you can leave the church but you can't leave it alone. I guess you don't even have to have been a member to harass the church, judging from some of these comments and the Ph.d. Thanks for the column. Right on.

# 21. 12/10/02 10:25 AM by Jason - Orem
Terrific column Bob! I appreciated your arguments regarding science and religion. The world would be a better place if more people had as much common sense. Faith is the first step, without faith you have nothing!

# 22. 12/10/02 10:30 AM by Jodi
One other issue about this whole deal you didn't elaborate on is the protest over this guy's possible excommunication from the Church. If he doesn't believe in the basic doctrine of the church, why would he want to be a member? I don't understand why his friends are protesting -- each one of them should understand that membership in the LDS church is based upon a belief of certain doctrines and laws. If you come out in opposition to those doctrines, isn't it obvious that you no longer choose to be a member? Does he think he is the inspired one now and should be the one to guide the church? "When men get a little wisdom, they think they are wise." How sad.

# 23. 12/10/02 10:35 AM by Paul Rusin - Holley, NY
Bob, in America, B.C., Barry Fell acknowledges through artifacts found here in the U.S., in certain caves, and man made cave formations similar to those made by ancient Pagans (such as Stonehenge), that America did have a population of Israelite (not Jewish)immigrants prior to Christ's birth. Other books I've read narrate how the Israelites, and particularly the tribe of Dan, who were a seafaring people, brought people's who were indigenous to Canaan to the America's (becoming the Indians, Aztecs, Toltecs, Mayans, Incas, etc.). Even some ancient Egyptian heiroglyphics have been found in the western states.

It is highly likely that these same Danes brought other Israelite bretheren with them. The Israelites knew the promises of God to Jacob(Israel), especially the sons of Joseph; Ephraim, and Manasseh. Ephraim was to become a conglomerate of nations with great power, and holding the sea lanes of the world. This describes the British, 'Brith' meaning 'covenant' 'ish' meaning 'man'.

The sons of Manasseh would be a great nation, wealthy, and powerful who would come out from his brother. Describes the U.S. to a T.

The things found by Barry Fell made him conclude that there were people of Irish descent here prior to Christ's birth. Some of the writing on certain stones is similar to that of Irish script of those pre-Christian years. Most of the proof had/has been destroyed by the Catholic Church when the Romans invaded the Emerald Isle.

Though they were at the time similar in beliefs, the Irish worshipped the Sabbath on the true seventh day which we now know as Saturday, and kept the Feast Days as outlined in the Bible to the ancient nation of Israel by God, and, I might add, so did Jesus, his apostles, bretheren, and fellow church members.

The perversion of Christianity which began with the church in Rome (in order to convert the Pagan's to the Christian religion) was the reason for the discrepancies between the two Christian, but different sects. The church in Rome did away with the Israelite Holy Days, days ordained by God for His people to worship Him, and substituted those days with the Pagan feasts of Easter(Ishtar), and Christmas. Though Christ was born in late September, early October, while Joseph, and Mary were on their way to the Feast of Tabernacles(Tents), the RC Church created a day close in date to the winter solstice (December 21 or 22)-which the Pagans worshipped by cutting a tree from the woods, standing it upright in their homes, deck it with silver, and gold idols (see Jeremiah 10), and bowing down to worship it, and the coming spring which would bring a renewal of life- and also the birth day of Saint Nicholas, and called it Christmas in honor of, and to worship Christ's Holiness.

The other 7 God ordained feast days were discarded by the church in Rome, and anyone caught worshipping them was excommunicated, banished, which in those ancient times, also meant killed. Much history has been lost due to the interference of the RC Church. The books of the Mayans, and Incan's were burned by the Jesuit priests at the order of the church, and only small remnants of it remain. Much of what was destroyed was considered heretical because it shed light on the church's past history of deceit. Many of these works also detailed the same stories now found in our Bible, which validated the Holy book the church has sought to destroy for almost two thousand years now.

# 24. 12/10/02 10:40 AM by Sandi - Ogden, UT
This is one of the many times you have put into words exactly what I feel. Science is fallible, God isn't. But what I don't understand is why this man would want to stay a member of a church that he believes to be a fraud.

# 25. 12/10/02 10:48 AM by Jeff - Grantsville Ut
Why would this guy still want to be a member of the LDS church? Isn't that what the protest were about. People are actually objecting to his excomunication. Seems like he would want to resign from a church with doctrine that he finds flawed. Sadly, he has probally been doing this "research" on the government dollar. Hardworking people actually pay for these bafoons.

P.S. Corey, stay in New York. We don't need your kind here.

# 26. 12/10/02 10:55 AM by Ken Stuart - Farmington, Utah
Thank you Bob, that was an excellent!!

# 27. 12/10/02 11:06 AM by Doug - Leicester
It is sad to see how people want to ruin what others believe. I am not a morman but I know a lot of people that are, and they are the kindest poeple I know. They are Christians that love thier families and try to help everyone they can, it is a sin to attack them in this way.

# 28. 12/10/02 11:12 AM by Mike - Liberty, UT
As I read this to my wife she said, "He's a good man." meaning you Bob. She continued to say, "This guy wants a PhD for that? What an idiot." I couldn't have said it better myself. Keep up the good work Bob

# 29. 12/10/02 11:33 AM by Mark Evans - SLC, UT
WOW! You nailed it! Great column. Hope the guy doesn't get credit for starting with a flawed premise. Appreciate the column and talk-show. Keep it up. Merry Christmas and a Happy New Year.

# 30. 12/10/02 11:36 AM by Teri - Orem, UT
That's another nail hit right on the head!

# 31. 12/10/02 12:11 PM by Janet - Orem, Utah
Excellent article Bob and also, I like to read about NY issues, there is a whole world to be interested in~(#10) and #12~what is the point of personal attacks?

# 32. 12/10/02 12:38 PM by Yolanda C - Orem, Utah
Dear Bob, Thank you so much for your column on the DNA/Book of Mormon issue. What I liked the most was your thoughts on where to find religious answers. Everything comes down to faith and letting the spirit teach us about God. I agree with you wholeheartedly. I enjoy your column everyday, some thingsI find more interesting than others, but I appreciate your efforts in trying to make sense of all the senseless issues that plague us every day. Thank you very much. I wish you the best in your professional and personal life.

# 33. 12/10/02 12:50 PM by TerriLyn - Maryland
What are they protesting exactly? This guy's possible excommunication? He doesn't believe in a book Latter-day Saints claim as scripture; he doesn't believe the President of the Church is a prophet; he doesn't believe the church is true; and now he and his buddies are protesting when it is suggested that he might have his names removed from the records of the church? Sounds like someone is trying to hedge his bets.

# 34. 12/10/02 12:55 PM by Gordon - Logan, UT
I believe the young man is an instructor at the university he is attempting to get his PhD from. He is currently being considered fro ex-communication from his religion and is using the news media to get even for whatever it is he did to cause his trouble in the first place. Thanks for the explanation on DNA research it was enlightening.

# 35. 12/10/02 1:04 PM by Mike T. - South Jordan, UT
You're right on with this one, Bob. The Book of Mormon is false because one grad student in Washington does some flawed research? Whatever. I'd be interested in reading the actual dissertation to see how he justifies his work.

For anyone that's interested, there's been plenty of research done by the Foundation for Ancient Research and Mormon Studies (FARMS) that supports "outrageous" Book of Mormon claims like pre-Columbian travel to the New World. (http://farms.byu.edu/)

The Holy Ghost is the main witness of its truth, but there is also empirical evidence that the Book of Mormon not so crazy after all.

# 36. 12/10/02 1:08 PM - Charlotte, NY
Cory Sapp #9. I'me surprised you say you are interested in national or international topics then complain about a topic such as DNA proving or disproving ancestoral ties. "Webster, Where Life is Worth Living" seems to limit one's outside interests.

It would seem that the real strength of Bob Lonsberry's columns is the wide variety of thought provoking topics, not necesarrily his point of view.

# 37. 12/10/02 2:03 PM by debbie c - layton, utah
Thank you so much for your comments. My husband and myself had the same arguments for this guy. My question to him would be; "If you believe that the Book of Mormon is true, why do you need to prove that it is true?" Didn't Joseph Smith say that no science or factual proof would ever be found? It is about faith. I am a member of the church and have been all my life, but we all must come be converted to the truth. I also wonder why this guy wants to stay a member of the church if he doesn't believe in the doctrine? Thanks again.

# 38. 12/10/02 3:37 PM by Steve - Orem
Good words Bob, thanks.

# 39. 12/10/02 4:48 PM by Emily - SLC, Utah
I agree that many things in religion should be a matter of faith. However, I believe religion should be satisfying to the mind as well as the heart.

One of the things I love about LDS theology is its logic and the fact that it encourages its adherents to seek out higher education and the development of critical thinking.

# 40. 12/10/02 4:55 PM by Lisa Cullen - Penfield, NY
Wonder why that book of mormon isn't available like the Holy Bible is in religious stores. I forgot, it's a cult and you have to be sucked in to get your hands all the propaganda, after they make you feel you cannot function without the masses of the "sheeples" (sheep). It's a joke.

# 41. 12/10/02 5:52 PM by Steve - Webster
I couldn't care less about this guy and what he believes in. But then again I am a person with no religious beliefs at all anyways. I also know that relegion is the cause of most of the worlds problems and that is the main reason I am an athiest. I respect your ideas though and believe everyone has the right to believe anything they want.

# 42. 12/10/02 6:10 PM by Walt Gambrowski
As a Roman Catholic, I was impressed with what No. 23 wrote. But he forgot to mention our massive, papal consipiracy for world domination.

How the heck could he forget THAT?!!

My sympathies to the Mormons for putting up with similar crap.

# 43. 12/10/02 8:41 PM by W. Cleon Skousen - Salt Lake City, UT
I agree with you completely. You are an excellent writer and a great debater.

# 44. 12/10/02 10:26 PM by Ken Beaton - Penfield, NY
I am a little trepidacious about writing this comment because I am not in the habit of picking a fight just for the sake of a fight. However, sometimes you just gotta state it like it is. The Mormon "faith" is not false because of some DNA; but rather for far more serious offense- the denial of the deity of Christ. Christ was God in the flesh and no Mormon would ever attest to that. That; in a nutshell, is why Mormonism is considered a cult/false religion. The baby that was born in the manger was and is Immanuel- God with us. He was not the brother of Lucifer, nor is one of the many "sons" of God; but God Himself walking and talking and providing the only atonememt for my sin as well as yours. My hope, my prayer, is that this truth will find its way by the power of the Holy Spirit into your heart.

Editor's Note: Sorry, Ken, but as a failed Mormon, I'm pretty sure I'm going to hell, however the team's constituted.

# 45. 12/11/02 9:41 AM by Kirk J - Canandaigua, NY
That was one of the best articles you have penned... and that's saying quite a bit since they are almost always spot-on. Even true believers of the Book of Mormon could learn a lesson in reading it.

I hope you have sent, or will send a copy of this to the doctorate chair or committe of the student.

...Makes you wonder what he would have done had there been (against all odds) some genetic link...?

# 46. 12/11/02 10:33 AM by Adam Rodgers - Gilbert, Arizona
To anyone that considers "Cult" and "False Religion" as being the same thing, I would like to point you to the dictionary, an english one preferably. In it you will find:

"A system or community of religious worship and ritual."

or

"The formal means of expressing religious reverence; religious ceremony and ritual."

If you are all so dead set against "a man" telling you about anything concerning faith, why do you accept a word, demonized by todays society, which just stands for some form, ANY form of organized religion?

If you are false on this, perhaps it is possible that you are false on other things. Perhaps it is time to re-examine who you call a 'cultist', 'delusional', or 'mindless sheep'. In America, LDS membership has an extremely high (in relation to other religions) membership rate of people with higher educations (not just B.A.'s but M.A.'s and PhD's as well). Perhaps we are all not so 'mindless' as you assume.

Now, does this make us 'right'? That is for God to decide, not anybody who wants to try and tear us down in this life. God is a wholely personal decision between one person and his faith. LDS make that decision just like everyone else, it is a wonder why so many people are threatened by that same right that everyone has. Being a member, I have questioned religion time and time again, losing your father at 17 can do that to you. The truth is there for anyone to find, but it is up to you to find it for yourself, not for anyone else, and I'll be darned (Utah Humor, Sorry NY) if I let someone who can't read the english dictionary dictate to me my faith.

To the person who mentioned the "trinity" above (Christ is God, God is Christ), I challenge you to show me one instance of Christ being God the Father in Flesh, Spirit, whatever, other than they are both "God", prior to Nicean Creed texts. If you accept Man's defining of God (anything related to the "Creeds"), don't be to harsh on what you define as others following Man's defining of God (the LDS). And be sure you know our view, it is clear from your statement you only listen to what others tell you we believe. I wouldn't go to a baker for information on lamb chops, neither should you.

Great column as always, Bob.

# 47. 12/11/02 10:38 AM by Wayne H - Taylorsville, Utah
Bob, I couldn't agree with you more on this article. I also listened to your comments this a.m. re: LDS Church Plaza City Council meeting of last night which I watched in its entirety. You wax SO ELOQUENT in your speech and understanding of this issue. The best thing you could do for our community is to send a copy of your remarks to the "Opinion" page of the Des. News and SL Trib.

Keep it up,

Wayne

PS: I tell everybody that has an opinion on anything to listen to your program. Thanks SOOOO much!!!!

# 48. 12/11/02 10:45 AM by Amy H - Logan, UT
I think it's funny how some people choose to argue over religion. I respect everyones right to believe whatever they choose too. I may not always agree with it, but isn't that the beauty of God's gift to us, that we may choose to believe however and whatever we want? I know there is a God. I am also LDS, and believe that what I have been taught is true. I also know that when I die, I will be proud of the way I have lived -even if the church wasn't the true church, and found that out after I died, I would still be very proud of living it's teachings, because no matter how you look at it, they are purely good. I don't think trying to disprove any persons core spiritual beliefs is correct. It destroys a part of who they are. The truth is man will never be able to prove to me what God can. Man will never be able to explain to me what Gods' spirit can. I rely on God for my faith, not man and what man thinks he can teach me. Man's knowledge is very limited (as evidenced by the world around us) It's a shame anyone thinks they can tell me more about my faith than God can.

# 49. 12/11/02 1:12 PM by Michael - Provo
Bob, you thank us every day for listening and reading; I thank you for talking and writing.

#44...Ask any Latter-day Saint whether Jesus is the God of the Old Testament (Jehovah), and you will get an unequivocally affirmative response.

Reason and revelation demand, though, that He cannot be His own Father any more than you are yours; nor is He a schizophrenic ventriloquist.

Believe what you will, but I'd rather believe that eternal truths are rational, and that "father" means father and "son" means son, than the cock-and-bull runaround illogical nonsense dreamt up by uninspired conventioneers hundreds of years removed from any apostolic authority.

A young man in 1820 saw what he saw, and heard what he heard, and the Holy Spirit has whispered to my heart and mind that his account is true.

P.S. If you doubt that Good and Evil can come from the same family, ask one Mr. Adam whatever happened with his boys, Cain and Abel. Just be ready to give him a Kleenex and a hug.

# 50. 12/11/02 11:20 PM by Beavelynn Tanner - Syracuse, Utah
Bob you have put what I have been turning over in my mind for days now. I had read the article in the paper about the PhD candidate, but haven't paid much attention to local news. It is strange that if you are anti-Mormon it is cool. But let a member of the LDS Church say one thing even slightly negative about anyone's elses' belief (or ask them to not demonstrate in front of our most holy ediface!), there is a hue and cry of bigotry and un-Constitutionality! Strange, sad, and all too familar. The 1840's are not, perhaps, so long ago as we all have thought ....

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