Note: Comments of readers are their own and do not reflect the feelings of Bob Lonsberry or lonsberry.com.
84 Responses to:
CHURCHES SHOULD REPENT
# 1. 6/11/07 12:46 AM
lds welfare tries to get people off of it and able to provide for themselves. As a missionary taught people that took discussions for welfare help put had no intention of getting married or baptized wasted missionaries time.
ezra taft benson i thing said take the slums out of people. People use christ for charity and to tolerate sin or when it suits them a false christ I think.
but welfare when you dont try to get off of it is a disservice and we have help projects I thhink need to help people help themselves and be self reliant.
I contribute more to temples than humanitarian aid feel that is better use temple work eternal service were like the well is temporall and hopefully most people won't need help again.
# 2. 6/11/07 12:55 AM by Vaughn - Clinton, UT.
Give a man (or woman) a fish vs. teaching them how to fish. When a person becomes converted to Christ, they will have charity in their hearts and want to give service to others. Preach, convert and call multiplies the effort rather than the build the resentment of those receiving handouts.
# 3. 6/11/07 3:34 AM
Jesus said that whoever doesn't work shouldn't eat. Souls are damaged by violating that principle.
# 4. 6/11/07 3:53 AM by SB - Honeoye
The Catholic Church is a great example of Marxism with their advocacy of illegal immigration. They do it to fill their pews and coffers.
# 5. 6/11/07 6:18 AM by Rick - Rochester, NY
I’m a lapsed Catholic. Raised and educated with the Catholic faith, I have a deep respect for the people who still believe in the Church.
For myself, however, I’m content – more than content really – to simply believe in God. I don’t wear my faith on my sleeve, and I don’t expect others to believe as I do. I don’t need a priest or a minister to remind me on a weekly basis of how I’m supposed to live my life.
Organized religion can do whatever it is that they do, and I expect that they will evolve to reflect what the times need from them. I think it’s fine that you have an opinion on that but it’s arrogant of you to suggest that churches aren’t doing what they are supposed to do – especially if it’s not your church.
If your particular church fails to meet your needs, find another one, but it’s condescending – even for you – to suggest that the problems of the world would be cured by all churches preaching harder.
# 6. 6/11/07 6:27 AM by Eric - Rochester, NY
My religion is very simple – my religion is kindness Dalai Lama
If that’s wrong, I don’t want to be right.
Editor's Note: interesting, a religion with no god.
# 7. 6/11/07 6:28 AM - Fairport, New York
Actually, helping the poor & sick should be part of the church's mission. It's politics that the church needs to stay out of!
# 8. 6/11/07 6:44 AM by David
Just as some people expect others to meet their needs, so do many Christians expect the church to cleanse them on Sunday from their willing, sinful deeds during the week.
The "Enter" and "Exit" signs on every church should be reversed. We exit God's real kingdom when we enter the church, and we enter it upon leaving. The true test of our faithfulness doesn't get revealed on Sunday. It exposes itself during the rest of the week while the world watches.
# 9. 6/11/07 6:50 AM by Rob Durham - Rochester,NY
Does it even matter anymore? The devel has infiltrated most christian churches anyway.
# 10. 6/11/07 6:53 AM by James bar Joseph - Jerusalem
Don't underestimate good works.
# 11. 6/11/07 7:05 AM by terry - albion
At no time have I agreed with you as much as I do today. I have experienced what you are talking about. I left a denomination who abandoned the Word of God years ago in favor of a leftist agenda. They do this to be "inclusive" while ignoring the fact that "Many are called, few are chosen". it's sad to see a church organization self destruct.
I wonder what would make a church ignore the example of ancient Israel, which is right in the Bible, & turn away from God? The denomination I left has gone so far away from the principles of God that they even ordain females & homosexuals in clear & blatant violation of Scripture.
However, there is hope. God always preserves a remnant. There are many churches that haven't "bowed down to Baal". I attend one such church in Holley. There are many in the area of various denominations that still preach the Word of God & not a bunch of feel-good psychobabble. There are still churches that have a core belief that our primary mission is to Worship God & that one of the best ways to do that is to obey His commandment to spread His Word, The Gospel, to every person on Earth. There are still many of us who know that faith in the sacrificial death & resurrection of Christ is the only way to God & that all other roads lead to hell as the Bible says.
You are not alone Bob. there are many of us. Why do you think churches labaled as "evangelical" are experiencing such massive growth while the old denominations that have sold out are dying?
one question: why did you link evangelical & pentacostal churches in the poll? They are two very different things. You tend to find little adherance to the scriptures in charismatic pentacostal churches, while the opposite is true of evangelical churches of various denominations.
# 12. 6/11/07 7:06 AM by TK - Mount Morris, N.Y.
Good morning Bob, Victory Baptist Church in Henrietta is an outstanding church whoose pastor actually preaches the gospel from the bible. He also isn't afraid to tell it like it is..meaning a sin is a sin, period. He makes no apology if that hurts someones feelings. I think to often the bible gets interpeted to fit someones personal opinions and agendas when the "truth" of the gospel is left behind.
# 13. 6/11/07 7:17 AM
Is there a church with a more extensive social welfare program than yours?
# 14. 6/11/07 7:20 AM
I have been saying this for years, including in this forum. THANK YOU for writing a column about it. It is all too unfortunately true.
It is no coincidence that evangelical churches and the Mormon church are growing, while the Catholics and mainstream Protestants, who have sold their birthright for a mess of pottage, dwindle away.
I choose to stay. I choose to work within my church. I choose to keep on bringing up this extremely unpopular topic. I choose to keep trying to make people think.
One more point. The churches that insist that homosexuality is not condemned by the Bible, if the Bible is correctly contextualized, do not apply the same standard of criticism to issues of poverty. If you contextualize the poor of the Bible and Jesus' response to them, you find that those who didn't work, didn't eat, and that Jesus helped those who were unable to care for themselves, not those who were unwilling, or too sated with public handouts to have a work ethic.
# 15. 6/11/07 7:21 AM by Steve Anderson - The Place, Utah
Bob, Bob, Bob,
Have you no sense of charity for the poor,the mentlly ill,the babe's in arms coning over our southern border?
that radio host of the Pillsbury Dough Voice (Doug W )
# 16. 6/11/07 7:31 AM
I have a real problem with organized religion, especially when religion and politics get mixed up. I know it really isn't possible to keep the two completely separate, but I got awful sick and tired of being told how to think and how to vote. I will make up my own mind, thankyouverymuch.
# 17. 6/11/07 7:35 AM by Pete - Webster
I was raised Catholic when the Mass was still said in Latin, which made no sense because no one could understand what was being taught. I went because I was told to do so. For some reason I always knew that there was more than I was being taught.
I am not one of Jesus's best examples but through my years of study, I know that God The Father and Jesus Christ are the only path that this world has.
With that said, your column is no revelation, religion even if they don't take on those secular responsibilities still don't teach what Jesus has asked them to do. There are only two that do and they are mentioned in Revelation but neither one of them are an organized religion as we know them. The fact is that these churches have nothing to do with a building or organization. They are made up of individuals that come from all the different types.
Now, teaching the Love of God is a good thing but there is so much more than "Love and Peace". These are mainly taught because they are safe. There is so much more that needs to be taught that leads up to the future Kingdom of God and some of it is not pretty so most religions don't teach it.
So basically, I do agree with your column but not for the same reasons. I am none of the religions you mention in your poll nor do I want to be. If religions don't start to teach the tough things, I don't care how many times someone go to a church building they will never be prepared and will remain ignorant of the tribulations to come.
# 18. 6/11/07 7:46 AM by Mario - Brockport
The secular-progressive way.
No religion = no morality = no right or wrong.
No prayer in school and no religion in the public square. Can't say "under God" in our pledge and don't want in God we trust on our currency.
These churches have abetted the SP crowd to achieve their agenda. Sad, very sad.
# 19. 6/11/07 7:58 AM by AJ from Walworth
You know I don't agree with the details of your religion, but you are right on with this column.
We are currently church shopping again and found one that we thought would work out, but yesterday was a social gospel sermon. And hymn. I don't want to sing the praise of the oppressed. I want to sing the praise of the Redeemer.
I have always believed that I have the gift of discernment and yesterday morning during the sermon, I felt that awful sick feeling I get when I am in the presence of heresy. Part of what bothers me is that hatred of those that have money seems to develop from the social gospel. Well, guess what - the rich need salvation every bit as much as the poor. Used to be people would look at the poor and wonder what sin they had done to become as they are. Now we look at the rich and assume that they have sinned to achieve what they have.
As the best pastors I ever had used to say "The main thing is to keep the main thing the main thing." Meaning Jesus. But almost all churches have lost that sight. Most churches are too involved in the social gospel, or driving a purpose, or doing some sort of "mathematical Christianity" - Jesus Plus ritual or Jesus Plus works, or Jesus Plus something.
Jesus said to take care of each other, but He also said that the poor would always be with us. We cannot save people from poverty or sin, only Jesus can.
We are still looking for a church.
# 20. 6/11/07 8:07 AM - Webster
There is an Evangelical Church in Webster - WEBSTER BIBLE CHURCH - that teaches from the Bible and nothing comes before saving souls with the knowledge that Jesus Christ lived, died for our sins and was resurrected. WBC is a welcoming, loving place where the congregants strive to live what is preached. The only hierarchy that WBC answers to is our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ!
# 21. 6/11/07 8:14 AM by John
I was raised Catholic. In the late fifties my 8 year old brother was sexually molested by a priest. I was 10 and didn't know this had happened until much later in life. which really turned away from the church. Religion is a shame. They talk a good game helping the poor and all that stuff, but it's just another business. A priest, reverend or rabbi is an employee that has to turn a profit. If he doesn't he reasigned. So much for a life of poverty. I believe that I have lived my life according to the ten commandments. The only one that I probably have a problem with is "coveting thy neighbor wife". Although I have not acted on this problem. I still like to look, if you know what I mean. If there is a God and heaven. And I can't get into heaven living my life as a decent member of society. Then I guess I'm going to hell
# 22. 6/11/07 8:20 AM by JV - Hilton, NY
"Imagine there's no heaven. It's easy if you try. No hell below us, above us only sky..."
# 23. 6/11/07 8:27 AM by Jerry - Rochester, NY
It's a shame, but I stopped going to church because I got tired of sermons on being "stewards of the environment," on debt forgiveness for African countries, on global warming, etc. My last time at church they advertised "fair trade coffee" after the service, so I left and never went back. What rubbish. It's sad.
# 24. 6/11/07 8:29 AM by Steve
Amen! This is exactly why I will no longer attend my church other than a few special occasions a year.
Send this Clark he needs to read and the entire staff at the Catholic courier. That paper reads no different than the DandC.
# 25. 6/11/07 8:34 AM by mike - rochester ny
One word for you xenophobia, just see how our fearless leader has made the world a much safer peaceful (oh that was Jesus preaching) place.
# 26. 6/11/07 8:36 AM by Rich - Penfield, NY
Honestly, there's nothing better at waking me up in the morning than reading messages from people who:
a) Claim that their Magical Being is real, while the other guy's Magical Being isn't.
b) Claim that their Magical Being doesn't like it when they try to help out their fellow man.
Thanks guys! I needed the laugh!
# 27. 6/11/07 8:40 AM by Pete - Webster
# 18. 6/11/07 7:46 AM by Mario - Brockport Writes:
"We are still looking for a church".
The word Church is translated the "called out ones" and does not mean a literal building or organization.
Though it is good that you fellowship but a KJV bible, a Strongs concordance, time and patience will be a great deal of help to you.
Going to a Church is a good thing, especially if you have young children but do not count on any man for your knowledge of Jesus and understanding what the Kingdom of God is to come.
I am not a Bible thumper, nor am I the greatest example but the teachings of Jesus are literal and it is a "personal" individual acceptance and choice.
Hope you can find the truth...........
# 28. 6/11/07 8:41 AM
Last Sunday they had three (3) collections. Partly, because church attendance is down. Why? Because young adults feel that it's not necessary in their lives. Furthermore, I would rather have my money be spent on social related issues, instead of the government wasting my tax dollars. If the parishioners have a problem with it, let them voice it. You wanna solve this problem in the church, have city government bring jobs here for those who are participating in social welfare. Without factories for the poor and the uneducated, you are wasting your breath. Your vision is nothing but a fallacy, so get off your Republican high horse and get back to reality.
# 29. 6/11/07 8:52 AM by Robert Kelly - 26 Summit St.
Bob, I listen to Your show everyday. I am not an expert on the Bible but, I read somewhere that I believe that Jesus said that if a man does not want to work,He shall not eat. I wish I could say what section that I read that. I believe that these so called ministers would do well to read the Bible instead of just shooting their mouths off. Thanks for listening. Bob
# 30. 6/11/07 8:56 AM by Denise R. - Rochester, NY
I read what you're trying to say and you are pretty clear. You speak the truth, as well. Preach and teach of Jesus - that is the ONLY mission of Christianity, yes. Anything else done in love, should be exra. However, it is true in the inner city or outlying rural areas, and people are down and out with no home or food, they cannot take in the message of a loving God until they have been fed and clothed - or while they're being fed, at least. People are not always going to have that "can-do" spirit. If that was not bred into them from family and community, it will not become them as they are down trodden. What will become them is hearing that Jesus does love them and comes to them from those who give them shelter, clothes and food. It is a whammy. People are not standing on their owns in pride and humility when down and out. They are taught to put their hand out. As Christians, we have to have that boundary and only serve them when we feel the stirring of the spirit. Otherwise, those of us who try to serve Christ are taken advantage of. On the times that we fail and are taken advantage of, we at least did it in good faith. God will settle with the ones who soak us for their gain. All we can do is ask God to guide us with boundaries, in order to help those who really need Him through us. He deals with the rest after we do our best, with discernment.
# 31. 6/11/07 8:57 AM
I think it was Bruce r mcconkie in foolishness of teaching that said ethics follow the main mission and protestants can teach ethics.
Victor L Brown gave a talk and commended people that were self reliant and railed on those that used church welfare when there lack of wisdom put them in that boat not sure what conference it was.
I think Boyd K Packer told of how some people thought great program and he said yes we could use your help with it and enthusiasm faded.
Missionaries telling people about welfare program and told to tone down or something to that effect it's not for the taken.
But like McConkie I think care for the needy follows the main mission and Judas thought they should give to the poor but he was thief.
Jesus there and in our day said gladden heart and please the eye. That actually helps people more than anything I think because someone is working so you can enjoy things.
We always will havve poor with us but a good elders quorom president or bishop or leader of other faiths will help them budget or do what they can to not need help rather than give it to them.
And Joseph in Egypt and in our day those that need help either give something in return or labor rarely get it for free.
# 32. 6/11/07 8:57 AM by Dick Weed - Hornell, NY
"metasticize?" How about metastasize you moron, I mean mormon.
# 33. 6/11/07 9:07 AM by Darius - Rochester, NY
James 2:22 - "Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect?"
# 34. 6/11/07 9:10 AM by Karen - Fairport, NY
A 30 year plus old hymn written by Carolyn Arends could have been written this morning and sent to every denomination. I love what the lyrics say: we'll be recognized as Christians by our love for one another and by nothing more - true and trying disciples of Jesus - not by our rhetoric or our politics or even the soundness of our theology, BUT by our love ----- This was a song sang at every church camp and youth group back in my day. Press on and do what is right, inspite of the church's actions, I say! God is watching us toward one another. -------------------------------------------- We are one in the Spirit, we are one in the Lord. We are one in the Spirit, we are one in the Lord. And, we pray that all unity may one day be restored. And, they will know we are Christians by our love, by our love. They will know we are Christians by our love!
Editor's Note: well, if love equals money, you've made your point. if love equals a desire to save the other's soul, you've made mine.
# 35. 6/11/07 9:14 AM by terry - albion
2Th 3:12 Now we command and exhort those who are such, by our Lord Jesus Christ, that they work with quietness and eat their own bread.
2Th 3:10 For even when we were with you, we commanded you this, that if anyone would not work, neither should he eat.
Just to be clear (because many think Christ said this), these are the words of the Apostle Paul, not Jesus Himself. However, Paul spoke with the authority of Christ as did the other Apostles.
# 36. 6/11/07 9:22 AM
So you think Jesus' followers would have thought just as well of him had he not raised Lasarus from the dead, fed the multitudes, made a blind man see, was crucified and rose from the dead etc.?
Also, I think many people today question why what happens here on earth for our brief stay with all our ignorances and defects, we face eternal, as in never ending, damnation in hell fire. Who wants to even think about a God so cruel let alone worship him. Eternal damnation for making bad choices with an imperfect mind that God gave us? Talk about being set up.
# 37. 6/11/07 9:22 AM by Mark - Rochester
#26 - Welfare hurts more than it helps people.
We have become a culture of entitlement rather than self sufficiency.
Our government poured billions into the New Orleans area because it "felt good", because it was demanded. Are the people any better off? Liberalism has misdirected the mission of the church, the schools and our goverment.
# 38. 6/11/07 9:25 AM by Ken Stockslater - Rochester, NY
you are always digging for a negative in peoples' kind comments that are helpful to many. such as you showing your overly inflated sense of self in your retort to # 34. you are not known by your love. you just spout the rhetoric, but the tenets do not show in your life. you proudly hark you are going hell, like it is some badge. you like to pretend that you know what god calls for us to do but you stick it up his
# 39. 6/11/07 9:30 AM by Cathy Raines - RochNY
The LDS serve themselves. The "church" was started because some crazy person riding a tractor was daydreaming about screwing more women, beyond his wife. It is a perfect "religion" for you, you creep. You fall for anything that pads your sick little pud in your pants covered over with sacred garments. Yuk.
# 40. 6/11/07 9:31 AM by Chris - Greece
Wrong again, Bob. More Catholic bashing on your part. This is where the Protestants have it wrong, wrong, wrong. Saying you're "saved" means NOTHING. It's WHAT YOU DO. Your ACTS bring your salvation. It's not enough to accept Christ...you must BE Christ, emulating him. You must also see Christ in everyone (even people who hate you). You must treat the least of us as if they were Christ himself.
Lord, make me an instrument of your peace, Where there is hatred, let me sow love; where there is injury, pardon; where there is doubt, faith; where there is despair, hope; where there is darkness, light; where there is sadness, joy;
O Divine Master, grant that I may not so much seek to be consoled as to console; to be understood as to understand; to be loved as to love.
For it is in giving that we receive; it is in pardoning that we are pardoned; and it is in dying that we are born to eternal life.
# 41. 6/11/07 9:33 AM by Thomas - Chili, NY
Here’s an abstract thought – organized religions were started centuries ago as a means to control people. Fear God’s wrath and all that. Do this or that, or God will smite thee for all eternity. Not unlike the “Santa’s watching you” threat that some parent’s use to make kids toe the line.
God or some kind of almighty being may or may not exist. We really don’t know for sure. Jesus Christ is a historical figure, who if history is correct (and how would we know what really happened 2000+ years ago), he was a decent man. Son of God? Prophet? It‘s anybody’s guess, but tales of his life have persisted since then and have only grown.
If you want my honest opinion, every organized religion is a bunch of hooey. Voodoo and fairy tales. Yours is right, but mine is wrong? How does that work? If anyone claims to have the absolute answer, they should be locked up in a nuthouse.
Amid all the hype and BS, I think the one thing churches do right is to help those less fortunate. I really don’t think people who take the time to go to church every week need to be constantly reminded how their Christ died on a cross. They already know. They do need to be reminded on how they can be better people, and for anyone to suggest otherwise shows what an arrogant individual they really are.
That bible that you hold so dearly has some nice stories, but seriously – does anyone believe that the entire thing is factual? If so, where’s the bible of today? What – all the miracles and wisdom stopped after the New Testament was written?
Believe what you want because that’s the beauty of the United States, but what gives any person the authority or right to tell someone how they can best serve their God or their fellow man?
# 42. 6/11/07 9:39 AM by Steve - Henrietta, NY
I agree Bob, wholeheartedly...
Also, I think there are lots of churches who "preach the gospel" but don't reach out to their communities/world and help people with difficulties, I think they should repent as well.
It's a difficult balance between the 2 ideas that few churches or individuals acheive...
# 43. 6/11/07 9:40 AM by LESLIE HOBBS - PENFIELD
AND THEY WILL KNOW WE ARE CHRISTIANS BY OUR LOVE, BY OUR LOVE,,,,,YOU AND SOME OF YOUR RESPONDERS HERE ARE NOT BY YOUR LOVE. IT IS EASY TO TELL THE CHRISTIANS HERE. YOU, BOB-O-MISSING LINK ARE NOT ONE OF THEM. YOU TREAT PEOPLE POORLY, ACROSS THE BOARD. YOUR HEART IS STONE BUT WILL GRIND FOR YOUR GAIN FROM OTHERS.
# 44. 6/11/07 9:43 AM
(psssst).... excuse me, number 40, but your acts don't bring salvation. It is your intent and whether God was glorified.
# 45. 6/11/07 9:50 AM by terry
# 40 has it wrong. It is not what you do that gets you into heaven. Faith in the substitutional sacrifice of Jesus Christ alone is what reconciles us to God.
This is where people get mixed up. It is not good works that makes us right with God. However, good works will be a natural result of our faith in Jesus Christ. That is why we can be known by our fruits. If we do not have the fruits of good works yet claim to be christians then we must examine where our faith truly lies. It is impossible to have experienced the Love of our Saviour, yet at the same time be miserable to others as a pattern of life. Of course we all have our sinful moments, but the sum of our life as believers should be characterized by our love toward others & the good deeds that will naturally flow from that. Many people in various denominations tend to get this principle mixed up.
# 46. 6/11/07 9:53 AM by Robert S. - Rochester
We hope and pray that Bishop Clark will read this column and will not close St. Anthony's, Holy Rosary and Most Precious Blood parish in the City of Rochester.
We want to see Bishop Clark come to the inner city parishes and walk among the poorest of the poor, just like Bishop Fulton Sheen did when he was Bishop of Rochester.
Bishop Sheen also refused to live in the Bishop's mansion. He chose to live in a small room.
# 47. 6/11/07 10:00 AM by Glenn Austin - Cobbs Hill Area
Oh yep, boy, you are one to be telling us what Christianity is all about. This column will make readers turn to incense burning to send your evil spirit on its way. You are nothing but good entertainment, but you are not a man of God or to be even considered in your advice on which way to carry on in life. People listen to people of example. When people show you who they are, believe them. You have shown enough of yourself to the public for us to believe you on who you are. You will not be remembered as a good and kind man. You are disgustingly crude and hurtful to people. I wonder if God is offended you even speak His name or even turn to him when you continue to do what you know is not what He asks of you. We all get our due in the end. You'll get yours.
# 48. 6/11/07 10:01 AM by Elle
The other night I caught Bill Moyers interview with that socialist woman Episcopal bishop, Schori. They were discussing the split between the worldwide Anglican Church over gay clergy/bishops. Her position was that those who hold to the traditional scriptural position that this is wrong will eventually see the light. She actually used Galileo as en example. YIKES! Defiitely confirms Savage's 'liberalism as a mental disorder'.
# 49. 6/11/07 10:13 AM by Richard Scudder - Rochester, NY
For the most part, I think that you have the issue nailed. The Scriptures are very clear that the one and only thing that a person must be do to be saved is to accept the fact that each of us have broken God's laws and deserve to spend eternity separated from our Holy God. The only solution to this separation is to accept the perfect sacrifice of His son Jesus Christ on the cross of Calvary and the blood that He shed there for us. When we look to Him and only Him for our salvation, the price for our redemption is marked Paid in Full. North Baptist Church is one of a few in our area that teaches this fundamental and helps individuals to grow in the knowledge and likeness of Christ in our individual lives. Those who refuse to believe this Truth condemn themselves to an eternity separated from God.
# 50. 6/11/07 10:20 AM
I was raised Catholic and still attend some services - more for the sake of exposure of religion to my children. I have a strong faith, but do not believe one needs a physical house of worship. Too many times, the faith "community" is raising money to send to some other country, while looking past the problems here at home. Charity starts at home, and until the problems in our neighborhoods are fixed, i will continue to not contribute financially.
Would you like to:
add your own comment? or
send this story to a friend?